I made this blog as a place to put my thoughts about where I live. I want to have an open discussion about topics from local to national politics and news. Or technology and anything else interesting to me that day. I hope not to have to censor anyone for profanity or publicly revealing anyone's name that does not want it shown here. You will also be editied or deleted if you slander a business on this site that is not choosing to be part of the thread. OPOIB
Monday, August 27, 2012
Nasty posts
I am curious does anyone think that on political themed blogs or even generally themed ones, that nasty mean spirited posts help their party gain votes or hurt it ?
Thanks for posting. I like the competitions of ideas in a political debate, but if a person come to such a debate without knowing his or her religious or political foundation the differing Point Of View becomes a personal attack on their core beliefs and sometimes it is. I'm inspired when someone with far better writing skills than I can articulate my political beliefs or opinions in a moving a clear message and I don't mind when the person debating me can make me thinks about my own opinions in a fresh way. I do feel I share very good historical company with my political views. My experiences tells me people who's religous beliefs or political beliefs have only a foundation of that what their church, parents, peers or Fox News told them was the right opinions or political views get very agitated at those who press them for logic, facts or math when little exsist. people should seperate known facts from faith or opinions. Liberal POV
I'll comment here - to be honest, I think the number of politically active people is so small that political blogs have little affect on votes -- few people take the time to visit political blogs. Unfortunately, few people are interested enough to pay attention to politics until the four weeks prior to a presidential election. There can be some impact on the people involved, but since people who are interested in politics generally hold solid political beliefs, they are rarely swayed by anything they read on a blog. This is why I was surprised at how GIG allowed one issue to so change him as to cause a reversal in his overall political philosophy. Blogs tend to be places for the politically active to refine their political arguments and debate others. Because blogs tend to be the havens of the political hardcores, these debates can turn nasty. I'd rather they not, but it happens.
Lib, Let's be clear here -- if you will answer honestly, wouldn't you say that I spent hours engaging you in a civil way with "logic and facts" over everything from the definition of popular sovereignty to your infamous, "single working mom at Hardees" to taxes? You cannot claim that you have never been engaged. The truth is, once you were confronted with "facts, logic and math" you retreated, only to try and repeat the same statements a few months later. You became repetitive, calling conservatives everything from fascists to racists. Your current favorite seems to be "Limbaugh Republicans." If it were easier, I would spend time searching the blog archives and link to our past conversations so you could chase yourself down rabbit holes. How about instead of complaining about "Limbaugh Republicans" we here from you specifically what Obama has done to deserve a second term and how what he has done is beneficial. I'll throw this out -- real income for the average middle class family has declined by over $4000 during Obama's term. How is this good?
My apoligies for the cut and paste but this is how three others have effectively answered that question.
"Our jet lost it's engine and we were in a steep, powerless dive. Bush bailed out and took his banker buddies with him but there weren't enough parachutes for the rest of us. Obama sat down in the pilot seat while still in the dive and managed to re-ignite the engine allowing us to pull out of the dive. There's still something wrong because the plane isn't climbing fast enough but the tea party guys in the back of the plane won't let Obama get to the tools necessary to fix it.
He deserves a second term because he's demonstrated an ability to handle really tough problems (got bin Laden too) and in a second term there isn't any reason for the tea partiers to continue with their obstructionist policies. The black man can't run for a third term."
"Health insurance reform Subsidized 60% of Cobra insurance Recovering unused SSI benefits Medicare fraud recovery $5 billion Home foreclosure loan modification help Expanded Alaska oil drilling saving the auto industry jobs from going non-Union or overseas hiring first responders and teachers funding community medical clinics credit card disclosure reforms ending gay discrmination in the armed forces improved veterans benefits, medical care veterans employment program improving school nutrition Improving lower school grades in "Race to the Top" saving the largest banks and financial institutions tax credits for small business hires income tax credits 2009 tax rebates Social Security tax cut seniors $300 rebate nuclear treaty with Russia stronger military presence in the Pacific Iron Dome missile defense system for Israel launching cyber attacks on Iranian nuclear facilities capturing the most wanted terrorist and 5 of his henchmen overthrowing the Libyan terrorist leader Quadaffi anti-terrorism campaigns in Afghanistan deportation of 400,000 illegal criminals reducing student loan costs extended unemployment benefits Campaign against childhood obesity Consumer protection agency Temporary work permits for undocumented youth Refunds on insurance premiums"
"Obama has overhauled the food safety system Advanced women's rights in the work place Ended Don't Ask, Don't Tell (DADT) in our military Stopped defending DOMA in court. Passed the Hate Crimes bill. Appointed two pro-choice women to the Supreme Court. Expanded access to medical care and provided subsidies for people who can't afford it. Expanded the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) Fixed the preexisting conditions travesty [and rescissions] in health insurance. Invested in clean energy. Overhauled the credit card industry, making it much more consumer-friendly. While Dodd-Frank bill was weak in many respects, it was still an extremely worthwhile start at re-regulating the financial sector. He created a Elizabeth Warren's dream agency: The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. He's done a lot for veterans He got help for people whose health was injured during the clean-up after the 9/11 attacks." Liberal POV
We're a long way from agreeing on mob rule of popular sovereignty. The Amendment One vote during a Republican primary is a perfect example of the injustice of popular sovereignty. The courts will eventually rule as Dan Soucek and Jordan all know it will point out the fact the majority doesn't have the moral or legal right to vote away rights for the minority, in this case gay American citizens. Why do you support a political party that doesn't support Freedom and Liberty for all? Liberal POV
The fictional Biscuit Maker at Hardies who is a single mom with two children working 40 plus hours per week but still has to have government assistance to meet the basic needs of food, shelter, clothing, health care, transportation and education and day care for her children? Why should mega chains like Hardies, Yum or Walmart be given tax breaks or be allowed to pay employees below a living wage while the CEO, CFO are making annual salaries of millions? If a corporation is traded as a public stock the first requirement should be all employees make a living wage. These are the people putting small Mom and Pop owned businesses out of business. Liberal POV
Lpov, I have to disagree with you on the hardees biscuit maker. If she works 40 hours a week at min wage and can not feed her two kids that is not my fault as a tax paying business owner.
If she had two children with out the means to support them it is not my fault nor is yours or is it the fault of Hardees. Hardees is publicly traded and had a fiduciary rresponsibility to make as much profit for its share holders as it can.
If the biscuits go from 5 bucks a meal in the morning to 10 to double her hourly wage from 7.25 to 14.5 how many customers will buy those biquits?
If they don't then the share holders do not make money. Also chains like that are in many portfolios of IRA holders so retirement then gets more risky as their pension money was invested in to a chain paying too much to its employees.
Like it or not a biscuit makers job is not worth much more in the free market then minimum wage. I feel she would be better served if is going to be on government assistance/taxpayer supported that she has to enroll in vocational training with onsite child care so she can get off the tax payers support and take care of the children she decided to make.
The taxpayers are now subsidizing the Hardies with public assistance to a hard working woman so CEOs and CFO can draw millions in salaries while forcing Mom and Pop Restaurants out of business. The CEO and CFO's income needs to be ties the lowest paid employees income. Before "Trickle Down " and "Voodoo" economics Major Businesses offered employees increased income and benefits as they had rather pay employees than taxes. Now they just take it all and the middle class dwindles and the poor have no voice and are forgotten or worst made the scapegoat.
OPOIB, The answer you gave to Lib is almost identical to the answer that I and others on the other blog gave to him about a year ago. Lib, you must be experiencing serious deja vu. Question: at what point does one person's bad choices in life cease to be everyone else's problem to the point that the government will seize, through taxes, money from responsible people to redistribute to people who make poor decisions? If we continue to subsidize bad decisions, want the result be more bad decisions by more people? It's like rewarding people who refuse to be responsible and punishing people who are responsible. Your cut and paste is beyond useless. I was hoping (but didn't really expect) an original thought from you, not a copy and paste that is so long that one cannot respond to it without sacrificing all of their time that could be better spent on a job or with family. Tell me in your own words why you think Obama deserves a second term, and try not going to Google first. Oh, and try to not start with a reference to President Bush as your post does -- didn't Obama run in 2008 as the man who could fix the problems? You should give President Bush some credit -- he went against the wishes of conservatives and bailed out the auto industry out of TARP monies saying that he would not hand over a bankrupt auto industry to his successor. He also reserved half of the TARP funds for Obama (which was promptly used as a slush fund). And finally, so you are opposed to democracy? You learned nothing from our LENGTHY discussion on popular sovereignty last year. Go back and reread that discussion in the archives of the other blog -- I'd rather not have the same discussion again.
Lpov, if "CEOs and CFO can draw millions" it is because the market allows it. If one firm did not pay it then none would, but corporations pay the best and brightest to run them so they can maximize profit for their shareholders.
That's why Yahoo just hired Marisa Meyer away from Google. She has a skill set that draws a much higher salary then a biscuit maker.
As far as tax payers subsidizing the fast food employee, she may not need it if she did not get pregnant two times with out considering the financial responsibility that entails.
I am sure she knew she did not have skills that would let her support two children prior to getting pregnant.
So her irresponsibility is then passed on to everyone else. I do not think that's fair.
Before I sound heartless let me say I am the result of a welfare mother, mine had 5 kids by 2 fathers and never worked. But looked forward to the checks that us kids brought in for her each month.
I never liked using lunch stamps to eat at school as it is a shaming experience when other kids brought lunch from home or had money to buy theirs, but it was that or hope maybe she got up to make something for dinner. Most nights the 5 of us us tried to make something to eat out of what was in the cabinets.
Some good nights we got treated to take out from a corner deli so she didn't have to cook at all. We only got to order the cheapest #1 sub at the deli while Mom got what mom wanted. I did not know what a roast beef or turkey sandwich tasted like till I bought one for my self. I thought baloney or ham was all there was in the cold cut world.
So please forgive me for not feeling bad for a Mother of two who did not think hey if I get knocked up I have to support these kids till grow up and they move out or until they leave early on their own. And if you have not had it government cheese sucks .
So when people complain more needs to be done for single mothers or fathers, I say wear a rubber or or find other ways to climax but do not make babies you can not support.
"He deserves a second term because he's demonstrated an ability to handle really tough problems (got bin Laden too) and in a second term there isn't any reason for the tea partiers to continue with their obstructionist policies. The black man can't run for a third term."
So are you saying that everyone who opposes Obama is a racist? I'm a fan of MLK and choose to judge a person, not by the color of their skin, but the content of their character. I oppose Obama not because he is African-American but because his policies are wrong for the country. You and others toss out the accusation of racism without pause and I find that tactic low and despicable. You cheapen real racism everywhere it is by accusing everyone of racism.
Nobody I'm not judging you as a racist but I am judging the conservative movement , people like Koch Brothers who fund The right wing lobby groups who hype the code words of Kenyan, Marxist, Socialist and the birther movement all designed to activat the racist gene by saying he not one of us, not a REAL American.
Lets find our common ground. Is the middle class growing? Is there a disparity of income and wealth in America beyond people unwilling to work? The lady at Hardies and Thousands of Walmart empolyees get up early every morning why shouldn't the job be worth a wage people can survive on without public assistance? Why at least would people like Dan Soucek and the republicans cut funding for pre kindergarten designed to break the cycle of proverty by helping low income children?
Who needs more than $1,500,000 per year at very low taxes to a good job? Do we need to tax the wealthy more? Do you see nothing wrong with the economy justice in America?
Lpov, I will take a shot at this one "Criminal Illeagal Aliens?" that one is self evident. If you came here illegally you broke the law. There for you are a criminal. You would be called the same if you or I went to mexico illegaly. If you went to any country in the EU. The same in Russia or China. And in many of those countries the penalty is much more severe then a free trip back to where you came from.
Still looking for common ground, What can we agree on? Let me say first I do believe we need reasonable, EFFECTIVE, realistic immigration reform. Applying the term Criminal Illegal Alien to a child in elementary school, the maid cleaning toilets at hotels or their husband working on an asphalt crew who are just trying to make a better life for their family after Free Trade disrupted the economy further in their home country. Corporations have little legal problems crossing boarders for economic reasons why do we criminalizes poor people trying to do the same? I want to reserve the term Criminal Illegal Alien for undocumented violent criminals who are a true threat to society. The Right Wing think tanks know the demonization of undocumented workers has strong political power and these people have no voice to fight back effectively. So you and Nobody painting the Conservative movement as bigots and racist being too harsh?
Lpov, we can start with this I am not a conservative, I am a libertarian. I vote for what brings the least government interference in to my personal life.
The child of the criminal is not my or your responibilty. If your here illegally you are a criminal and should be sent home. If you went to mexico to live illegally look up what your sentence would be. Fair is fair.
You made the point about the irresponsible woman who got pregnant twice with out the means to raise those children. She would have a chance at better wages if she did not have to compete with criminals who think minimum wage is a bounty.
Corporations exist in multi countries where it is lega. No corporation sets up a factory by sneaking a manufacturing plant over a border in the dead of night.
You try to paint the criminal aliens here as the poor the tired and the huddled masses. That's not true if you have a decent life you stay where you live if your unemployable or maybe are a criminal on the run you are much more likely to sneak in to the US then to come here through legal means.
Time for a reality check. We have a problem that needs to be solved. No one is going to deport millions of undocumented residents and you should know that. Now let deal with reality and why the demonization of future citizens or at least the parents of future citizens and voters?
LPOV, for your biscuit and baby making workers sake I hope your wrong.
I demonize no one I just call a pot or kettle black when the need is there.
It is a fact you sneak in here your a criminal the same if you or were to sneak in to Mexico, who by the way has one of the militarized southern border of any country.
A simple fix if there can not be deportation again a point I disagree with on, is to make our southern border as secure as Mexico's then implement ID checks at any place that wires money out of the country.
Now it is hard for New criminals to come in and hard for present criminals to send their illegally earned untaxed money back out. Or better yet pass the fairest solution a flat consumption based tax on everyone.
I have no problem with Immigration I think it is a good thing to keep mixing the gene pool in the US. I want anyone from any country who comes here legally to have the same rights as you or I.
If criminals make anchor babies fine there is a giant waiting list here of people wanting to adopt. That again is a responsibility choice. If you sneak in as a criminal you should know your anchor baby will not be going back with you when your caught, but will be adopted to a legal resident of the US.
LPOV in the nature of trying to find common ground here is one for you. I was at Lowes this morning buying creamer. The woman in line in front of me appeared to be of Latino decent.
No big deal she was on her cell phone speaking in Spanish again no big deal. She came up to pay, the cashier asked her cash or credit? She responded no habla english espenole?
Again no big deal maybe she is a tourist this is a tourist area.
Then she took out her card to pay. It was a food stamp card. Here is my problem, one she is in America and expected a cashier to speak Spanish, two she paid for that food on taxpayer money.Thus not a tourist but a person living in the USA.
Now if I moved to a Spanish speaking country I would expect to know or learn Spanish and not expect the country i moved to to speak my langue.
I would certainly not expect to have my food bought for me in the country I moved to if I could not speak the language of the country.
This hit a nerve I do not know if she was here legally or not, but I think i am not too far out of line to think that to have your food payed for by the taxpayers in the US you might want to learn the language of who is buying that milk and chicken for you. At least enough to speak to the cashier and not waive your card and say foodstamp.
Lots of thinks are being done wrong. I'm going to use the word ignorance not to demean or insult but the literal meaning of lack of knowledge is one of our major problems. Fox and Limbaugh fuel such misinformation. New immigrants do learn quick about the system here and sometimes how to exploit that system or at least use it. This is just another reason we need to have real immigration reform by not poisoning it with deportation nonsense or unnecessary rhetoric with racist overtone with terms like "Criminal Illegal Aliens" or taking revenge on children of the by preventing their education. One of the things you're wrong about is Social Security and Medicare as well as Federal and state tax is withheld if the company they work for is not breaking the law. Don't confuse the Guess Worker program which this woman could be a part of with undocumented residents. Guess workers are the seasonal workers who have legal status, they also look like recent immigrants with limited English. These are the workers at Blowing Rock Country Club, and other resorts. They can stay here for 9 months but do return to their home country and they don't pay Social Security and Medicare or state or local tax but they are legal and loved by the Republican establishment. My solution would be to raise the legal immigrants from nearby latin Countries and Canada to for more then the current 25,000 per year to perhaps 200,000 give a path to citizenship to those here for some period of time 3-5 years without serious crimes. New and existing immigrants would receive training on US residency, like being responsible, driving safely, drinking and driving laws, having insurance , a drivers license, Paying taxes, educating your children, banking, and paying bills on time all of which can be a problem in the current status quo.
LPOV. I stated a simple happening today and asked your opinion on that. You answered with a long list of talking point right off of msnbc.
I am not a full on righty or lefty. I am a libeertarion who is a moderate and looks at both sides, but always goes with what I feel is the proper solution fiscally.
To keep 11 to 14 million criminals here is something I can not support. Maybe we can agree that 11 to 14 million people that are here illegally are criminals not immigrants that would be a good start, immigrants do not sneak in durring the night across our borders.
It is too Damaging to out economy to support. I am still angry somebody was buying food this morning who could not speak a word of English expected a cashier to know Spanish for her and then paid with food stamps. If you can not see the wrong in that I do not know we will have any common ground to discuss things from.
You will not see me posting talking point from Fox or CNN or Rush or Comedy central . Well maybe if Colbert or Stewart is exceptionally funny that night .
My opinions are my own and discussed from that moderate viewpoint a financially fiscal one.
I was not aware I had sad anything from msnbc. I do like Rachael Meadows but don't watch her that often other that I seldom have MSNBC on. I think you 're realistic enongh to realize there's NEVER going to be a deportation of families woven into the American fabric. Some of the undocumented have been here for forty years and have children and grandchildren who are Amerrican citizens. The American public is not going to allow the forced deportation of children, or the parents, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, mothers, fathers grandfathers and grandmothers of American citizens. It ain't gonna happen! Lets agree on that, then move on.
I agree we move on LPOV. I disagree that the American public would support deportation those who are citizens stay those who are illegaly should be made to leave.
Is the middle class growing? Is there a disparity of income and wealth in America beyond people unwilling to work? The lady at Hardies and Thousands of Walmart empolyees get up early every morning why shouldn't the job be worth a wage people can survive on without public assistance? Why at least would people like Dan Soucek and the republicans cut funding for pre kindergarten designed to break the cycle of proverty by helping low income children?
Do the super Wealthy pay their fair share for the rewards they recieve from the American economic system?
Who needs more than $1,500,000 per year at very low taxes to a good job? Do we need to tax the wealthy more? Do you see nothing wrong with the economy justice in America?
Lpov, I ahave ot admit i am dissapointed by you. I hoped for a better more reasonable conversation with you here then we have had on other blogs. All i am getting fomr you is repitative posting of the same question. No discusttion no personal opions just the same question i can find on any left leaning site. I wrote to you form amoderat perspective neither right or left but my own. I was hoping for the same. I will answer a couple of yours and bow out .
Yes I think the country if presented the facts and figures of supporting 11 to 14 million criminals, in a way that says these criminals cost you LPOV and every other taxpayer X # of dollars will want them deported.
We have no common ground on that or will have as I see them as criminals you see them as immigrant. That will not change. An immigrant to me came here legally with a green card or work permit or was sponsored and did not sneak in to the country in the middle of the night or in a coyotes van.
The Walmart and Hardees employees earn what their skills are worth those are entry level jobs. At no time in my life can I remember anyone thinking an entry level job should support middle class lifestyles. No one tells you you will get a three bedroom house 2.5 kids and two cars in the garage flipping burgers and that and Walmart and Hardees pay that min wage as that's what those positions earn. If you can not afford a lifestyle you want, it is up to you to get the skills or education or training to earn more not me to volunteer to subsidies your lack of skills or education or use of birth control.
This iI do not understand in the way you said it but I think I get the question "Who needs more than $1,500,000 per year at very low taxes to a good job?"
If I can earn more then 1.5 million and pay my taxes at the legally required rate then I say anyone who has the skills, knowledge or training to make more then 1.5 million is absolutely entitled to every cent they can make.
The wealthy make most of their money on capitol gains no labor. If you think the wealthy should pay a higher percentage tax capitol gains more but do not make it look like they are not paying as much as they legally have to . And as investors they also bear the risk of loosing their money faster if their investments fail then a payroll tax payer. If you don't think Obama's tax lawyers are not working to make sure he does not have to pay one more cent in takes for the millions he made on his books I am afraid your very wrong.
I see a lot wrong in the economy like not having a flat consumption based tax system that is fair to all wealthy and poor alike. I see pacts for both sides of the fence influencing votes like the Koch's and the Soro's groups but repeating the same questions over and over does nothing.
Lets keep it factual. "At no time in my life can I remember anyone thinking an entry level job should support middle class lifestyles." No one is talking about a middle class lifestyle just enough for a very modest apartment in a safe area, transportation, healthy diet, modest reliable transportation, modest clothing, insurance for the car and health insurance money for the kids education. Starter income at a mega corporation like Walmart or Yum foods should be enough to meet basic needs. Especially when the owners and CEOs are millions in salaries. The six heirs of Walmart control more wealth than the bottom 40% of Americans. Why do you need to distort this to by moving a living wage to a middle class income? No one has suggested what the very wealthy are doing is legally wrong just morally wrong and shows how the current political system is stacked against the working poor. The point here is we have a political system bought by the very wealthy at the expense of the working poor and the middle class. That job would have a higher market value if unions were allowed to level the playing field.
Lpov this is where you and I willhave to disagree I do not belive a min wage job entitles you to any of this. "No one is talking about a middle class lifestyle just enough for a very modest apartment in a safe area, transportation, healthy diet, modest reliable transportation, modest clothing, insurance for the car and health insurance money for the kids education"
If you have no marketable skills beyond showing up and doing just what your told, such as flipping a burger mopping a floor making a biscuit then you will make min wages.
If you make minimum wage and do not better your self then you will have to live a minimum lifestyle. This includes not making kids you can not afford to take care of with out taxpayer assistance.
Just because you can breath and flip a burger does not entitle you to more the 7.25 an hour. If your not satisfied with that community college or vo-tech schools are free or extremely low cost.
"Especially when the owners and CEOs are millions in salaries." these people have extremely marketable and valuable skills if not they would not make those salaries and the owners have all the risk not the burger flippers at 7.25
If the heirs of the Walton family are too wealthy in your opinion what is the solution to remove that wealth from them? Not allow them to inherit it in the 1st place? Take it away by threat of imprisonment for just having rich parents ? That doesn't seem very fair. I received no inheritance from my welfare loving parent but if she left billions to me would you deny me the right to have it ?
I am disappointed in you I hoped in a new environment you would have more then just repetitive left leaning talking point questions. Maybe an opinion of your own not one made for you.
Morals are not and should never be legally regulated . The government has no business in my personal life, feeling, emotion,s or morals. If I want to be a tea totaling baptist or a skirt chasing womanizer drinking beer by the keg those are my moral choices. What does a left or right or moderate government have to do with them.
Opoib In some parts of the world the market price for a days work is a bowl or beans and rice. Do you really want to live in a society of extreme poverty, crime, illiteracy, disease but a few extremely wealthy families or a highly educated, hard working, modivated society where nearly everyone pays taxes and is part of the solution? We have models of both in the world today. Your political idealogy nor the Republican political idealogy is taking us in the direction of more citizens being part of the solution.
I'm a very strong liberal that disappointed in the corporate owned press but I think I can backup most of my opinions with facts, math, science, reality, history and logic. You made this comment. "Morals are not and should never be legally regulated " I'm confused here If you're talking about personal choices for living your life without doing harm to fellow human beings I'm onboard with you. If you're talking about making money with predatory capitalism, be it a physician writing addictive drug prescriptions, pay day loans, blocking workers from organizing effective unions or banking and wall street schemes of class warfare waged against the middle class it is the business of the government to see we have economic justice in America.
The difference between Democrats and Republicans is Republicans cause poverty and the Democratic party's solutions to deal with the poverty are less than perfect allowing Republicans to return to power.
Lpov I disagree this time saying it is the "business of government" anything. The government is not a business that's the point. Business exists for one reason only profit.
If a business decides to be charitable fine. If they do not fine by me. But to apply a moral standard to a business is not correct never has been never will be.
Morals apply to people not business's. I can choose to be a nice guy or jerk that's a mortal choice.
I run my business to make money not for any altruistic world view of do gooding.
Government should govern not be in the business of making money or telling others how to spend theirs. For your examples there are laws to protect people from those things laws and morals are two different things.
"Morals apply to people not business's." This is the very reason a business should NEVER be seen as a person with political rights.
The Government's Job or at least that of a good government is to see the citizens enjoy a justice, prosperous and enlightened society. Regulating business for fairness is part of that job. I do agree with your comment on the conservative blog. I ask you again what kind of society do YOU want to live in? How good is your wealth if you fear being kidnaped or your business extorted?
Chiquita Brands International funded death squads in Central America, That makes your point. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/chiquita-brands-accused-funding-death-squads-article-1.255970
Lpov, "How good is your wealth if you fear being kidnaped or your business extorted?" those are legal not moral matters government makes laws thats what is there for not to make a profit. Not to regulate morals upon business. And if my business is sucsessful I will hire my own security rather the rely on government security.
I do not think the well to do, do not have their own security or alarms installed they do not sit home with open doors think woe is me I hope the government protects me from kidnappping. Thats a matter of self reliance and responsibility.
Opoib
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting. I like the competitions of ideas in a political debate, but if a person come to such a debate without knowing his or her religious or political foundation the differing Point Of View becomes a personal attack on their core beliefs and sometimes it is. I'm inspired when someone with far better writing skills than I can articulate my political beliefs or opinions in a moving a clear message and I don't mind when the person debating me can make me thinks about my own opinions in a fresh way. I do feel I share very good historical company with my political views. My experiences tells me people who's religous beliefs or political beliefs have only a foundation of that what their church, parents, peers or Fox News told them was the right opinions or political views get very agitated at those who press them for logic, facts or math when little exsist. people should seperate known facts from faith or opinions. Liberal POV
I'll comment here - to be honest, I think the number of politically active people is so small that political blogs have little affect on votes -- few people take the time to visit political blogs. Unfortunately, few people are interested enough to pay attention to politics until the four weeks prior to a presidential election. There can be some impact on the people involved, but since people who are interested in politics generally hold solid political beliefs, they are rarely swayed by anything they read on a blog. This is why I was surprised at how GIG allowed one issue to so change him as to cause a reversal in his overall political philosophy. Blogs tend to be places for the politically active to refine their political arguments and debate others. Because blogs tend to be the havens of the political hardcores, these debates can turn nasty. I'd rather they not, but it happens.
ReplyDeleteLib,
ReplyDeleteLet's be clear here -- if you will answer honestly, wouldn't you say that I spent hours engaging you in a civil way with "logic and facts" over everything from the definition of popular sovereignty to your infamous, "single working mom at Hardees" to taxes? You cannot claim that you have never been engaged. The truth is, once you were confronted with "facts, logic and math" you retreated, only to try and repeat the same statements a few months later. You became repetitive, calling conservatives everything from fascists to racists. Your current favorite seems to be "Limbaugh Republicans." If it were easier, I would spend time searching the blog archives and link to our past conversations so you could chase yourself down rabbit holes. How about instead of complaining about "Limbaugh Republicans" we here from you specifically what Obama has done to deserve a second term and how what he has done is beneficial. I'll throw this out -- real income for the average middle class family has declined by over $4000 during Obama's term. How is this good?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303822204577468750027784434.html
Well look at this a civil conversation. I am happy to see you both post. Opoib
ReplyDeleteNobody
ReplyDeleteWhat has obama Done to deserve a second term?
My apoligies for the cut and paste but this is how three others have effectively answered that question.
"Our jet lost it's engine and we were in a steep, powerless dive. Bush bailed out and took his banker buddies with him but there weren't enough parachutes for the rest of us. Obama sat down in the pilot seat while still in the dive and managed to re-ignite the engine allowing us to pull out of the dive. There's still something wrong because the plane isn't climbing fast enough but the tea party guys in the back of the plane won't let Obama get to the tools necessary to fix it.
He deserves a second term because he's demonstrated an ability to handle really tough problems (got bin Laden too) and in a second term there isn't any reason for the tea partiers to continue with their obstructionist policies. The black man can't run for a third term."
"Health insurance reform
Subsidized 60% of Cobra insurance
Recovering unused SSI benefits
Medicare fraud recovery $5 billion
Home foreclosure loan modification help
Expanded Alaska oil drilling
saving the auto industry jobs from going non-Union or overseas
hiring first responders and teachers
funding community medical clinics
credit card disclosure reforms
ending gay discrmination in the armed forces
improved veterans benefits, medical care
veterans employment program
improving school nutrition
Improving lower school grades in "Race to the Top"
saving the largest banks and financial institutions
tax credits for small business hires
income tax credits
2009 tax rebates
Social Security tax cut
seniors $300 rebate
nuclear treaty with Russia
stronger military presence in the Pacific
Iron Dome missile defense system for Israel
launching cyber attacks on Iranian nuclear facilities
capturing the most wanted terrorist and 5 of his henchmen
overthrowing the Libyan terrorist leader Quadaffi
anti-terrorism campaigns in Afghanistan
deportation of 400,000 illegal criminals
reducing student loan costs
extended unemployment benefits
Campaign against childhood obesity
Consumer protection agency
Temporary work permits for undocumented youth
Refunds on insurance premiums"
"Obama has overhauled the food safety system
Advanced women's rights in the work place
Ended Don't Ask, Don't Tell (DADT) in our military
Stopped defending DOMA in court.
Passed the Hate Crimes bill.
Appointed two pro-choice women to the Supreme Court.
Expanded access to medical care and provided subsidies for people who can't afford it.
Expanded the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP)
Fixed the preexisting conditions travesty [and rescissions] in health insurance.
Invested in clean energy.
Overhauled the credit card industry, making it much more consumer-friendly.
While Dodd-Frank bill was weak in many respects, it was still an extremely worthwhile start at re-regulating the financial sector.
He created a Elizabeth Warren's dream agency: The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.
He's done a lot for veterans
He got help for people whose health was injured during the clean-up after the 9/11 attacks."
Liberal POV
Nobody
ReplyDeleteWe're a long way from agreeing on mob rule of popular sovereignty. The Amendment One vote during a Republican primary is a perfect example of the injustice of popular sovereignty. The courts will eventually rule as Dan Soucek and Jordan all know it will point out the fact the majority doesn't have the moral or legal right to vote away rights for the minority, in this case gay American citizens. Why do you support a political party that doesn't support Freedom and Liberty for all? Liberal POV
Nobody
ReplyDeleteThe fictional Biscuit Maker at Hardies who is a single mom with two children working 40 plus hours per week but still has to have government assistance to meet the basic needs of food, shelter, clothing, health care, transportation and education and day care for her children?
Why should mega chains like Hardies, Yum or Walmart be given tax breaks or be allowed to pay employees below a living wage while the CEO, CFO are making annual salaries of millions?
If a corporation is traded as a public stock the first requirement should be all employees make a living wage.
These are the people putting small Mom and Pop owned businesses out of business.
Liberal POV
Lpov, I have to disagree with you on the hardees biscuit maker. If she works 40 hours a week at min wage and can not feed her two kids that is not my fault as a tax paying business owner.
ReplyDeleteIf she had two children with out the means to support them it is not my fault nor is yours or is it the fault of Hardees. Hardees is publicly traded and had a fiduciary rresponsibility to make as much profit for its share holders as it can.
If the biscuits go from 5 bucks a meal in the morning to 10 to double her hourly wage from 7.25 to 14.5 how many customers will buy those biquits?
If they don't then the share holders do not make money. Also chains like that are in many portfolios of IRA holders so retirement then gets more risky as their pension money was invested in to a chain paying too much to its employees.
Like it or not a biscuit makers job is not worth much more in the free market then minimum wage. I feel she would be better served if is going to be on government assistance/taxpayer supported that she has to enroll in vocational training with onsite child care so she can get off the tax payers support and take care of the children she decided to make.
Opoib
ReplyDeleteThe taxpayers are now subsidizing the Hardies with public assistance to a hard working woman so CEOs and CFO can draw millions in salaries while forcing Mom and Pop Restaurants out of business.
The CEO and CFO's income needs to be ties the lowest paid employees income.
Before "Trickle Down " and "Voodoo" economics Major Businesses offered employees increased income and benefits as they had rather pay employees than taxes. Now they just take it all and the middle class dwindles and the poor have no voice and are forgotten or worst made the scapegoat.
OPOIB,
ReplyDeleteThe answer you gave to Lib is almost identical to the answer that I and others on the other blog gave to him about a year ago. Lib, you must be experiencing serious deja vu. Question: at what point does one person's bad choices in life cease to be everyone else's problem to the point that the government will seize, through taxes, money from responsible people to redistribute to people who make poor decisions? If we continue to subsidize bad decisions, want the result be more bad decisions by more people? It's like rewarding people who refuse to be responsible and punishing people who are responsible. Your cut and paste is beyond useless. I was hoping (but didn't really expect) an original thought from you, not a copy and paste that is so long that one cannot respond to it without sacrificing all of their time that could be better spent on a job or with family. Tell me in your own words why you think Obama deserves a second term, and try not going to Google first. Oh, and try to not start with a reference to President Bush as your post does -- didn't Obama run in 2008 as the man who could fix the problems? You should give President Bush some credit -- he went against the wishes of conservatives and bailed out the auto industry out of TARP monies saying that he would not hand over a bankrupt auto industry to his successor. He also reserved half of the TARP funds for Obama (which was promptly used as a slush fund). And finally, so you are opposed to democracy? You learned nothing from our LENGTHY discussion on popular sovereignty last year. Go back and reread that discussion in the archives of the other blog -- I'd rather not have the same discussion again.
http://wataugarepubs.blogspot.com/2011/02/british-pm-revealing-clear-thinking.html
(OPOIB - sorry if linking to the archives is inappropriate)
Nobody, link away. I do not mind in a bit a link to another site. I use them often myself.
DeleteLpov, if "CEOs and CFO can draw millions" it is because the market allows it. If one firm did not pay it then none would, but corporations pay the best and brightest to run them so they can maximize profit for their shareholders.
ReplyDeleteThat's why Yahoo just hired Marisa Meyer away from Google. She has a skill set that draws a much higher salary then a biscuit maker.
As far as tax payers subsidizing the fast food employee, she may not need it if she did not get pregnant two times with out considering the financial responsibility that entails.
I am sure she knew she did not have skills that would let her support two children prior to getting pregnant.
So her irresponsibility is then passed on to everyone else. I do not think that's fair.
Before I sound heartless let me say I am the result of a welfare mother, mine had 5 kids by 2 fathers and never worked. But looked forward to the checks that us kids brought in for her each month.
I never liked using lunch stamps to eat at school as it is a shaming experience when other kids brought lunch from home or had money to buy theirs, but it was that or hope maybe she got up to make something for dinner. Most nights the 5 of us us tried to make something to eat out of what was in the cabinets.
Some good nights we got treated to take out from a corner deli so she didn't have to cook at all. We only got to order the cheapest #1 sub at the deli while Mom got what mom wanted. I did not know what a roast beef or turkey sandwich tasted like till I bought one for my self. I thought baloney or ham was all there was in the cold cut world.
So please forgive me for not feeling bad for a Mother of two who did not think hey if I get knocked up I have to support these kids till grow up and they move out or until they leave early on their own. And if you have not had it government cheese sucks .
So when people complain more needs to be done for single mothers or fathers, I say wear a rubber or or find other ways to climax but do not make babies you can not support.
"He deserves a second term because he's demonstrated an ability to handle really tough problems (got bin Laden too) and in a second term there isn't any reason for the tea partiers to continue with their obstructionist policies. The black man can't run for a third term."
ReplyDeleteSo are you saying that everyone who opposes Obama is a racist? I'm a fan of MLK and choose to judge a person, not by the color of their skin, but the content of their character. I oppose Obama not because he is African-American but because his policies are wrong for the country. You and others toss out the accusation of racism without pause and I find that tactic low and despicable. You cheapen real racism everywhere it is by accusing everyone of racism.
Nobody
ReplyDeleteI'm not judging you as a racist but I am judging the conservative movement , people like Koch Brothers who fund The right wing lobby groups who hype the code words of Kenyan, Marxist, Socialist and the birther movement all designed to activat the racist gene by saying he not one of us, not a REAL American.
Opoib and Nobody
ReplyDeleteLets find our common ground.
Is the middle class growing?
Is there a disparity of income and wealth in America beyond people unwilling to work? The lady at Hardies and Thousands of Walmart empolyees get up early every morning why shouldn't the job be worth a wage people can survive on without public assistance? Why at least would people like Dan Soucek and the republicans cut funding for pre kindergarten designed to break the cycle of proverty by helping low income children?
Who needs more than $1,500,000 per year at very low taxes to a good job?
Do we need to tax the wealthy more?
Do you see nothing wrong with the economy justice in America?
Nobody
ReplyDeleteYes, the list of reasons Obama should have a second term is cut and past but the list is still true and factual.
Do you really need more?
Nobody
ReplyDeleteIs it your claim Republicans do not have a history of exploiting bigotry and racism?
Why do strongest Republican precincts have a history of racism and bigotry?
Why do we hear demonizing terms like Criminal Illeagal Aleins?
Why was a vote on Amendment One during a Republican primary?
Lpov, I will take a shot at this one "Criminal Illeagal Aliens?" that one is self evident. If you came here illegally you broke the law. There for you are a criminal. You would be called the same if you or I went to mexico illegaly. If you went to any country in the EU. The same in Russia or China. And in many of those countries the penalty is much more severe then a free trip back to where you came from.
ReplyDeleteOpoib
ReplyDeleteStill looking for common ground, What can we agree on? Let me say first I do believe we need reasonable, EFFECTIVE, realistic immigration reform. Applying the term Criminal Illegal Alien to a child in elementary school, the maid cleaning toilets at hotels or their husband working on an asphalt crew who are just trying to make a better life for their family after Free Trade disrupted the economy further in their home country. Corporations have little legal problems crossing boarders for economic reasons why do we criminalizes poor people trying to do the same?
I want to reserve the term Criminal Illegal Alien for undocumented violent criminals who are a true threat to society. The Right Wing think tanks know the demonization of undocumented workers has strong political power and these people have no voice to fight back effectively. So you and Nobody painting the Conservative movement as bigots and racist being too harsh?
Lpov, we can start with this I am not a conservative, I am a libertarian. I vote for what brings the least government interference in to my personal life.
ReplyDeleteThe child of the criminal is not my or your responibilty. If your here illegally you are a criminal and should be sent home. If you went to mexico to live illegally look up what your sentence would be. Fair is fair.
You made the point about the irresponsible woman who got pregnant twice with out the means to raise those children. She would have a chance at better wages if she did not have to compete with criminals who think minimum wage is a bounty.
Corporations exist in multi countries where it is lega. No corporation sets up a factory by sneaking a manufacturing plant over a border in the dead of night.
You try to paint the criminal aliens here as the poor the tired and the huddled masses. That's not true if you have a decent life you stay where you live if your unemployable or maybe are a criminal on the run you are much more likely to sneak in to the US then to come here through legal means.
Opoib
ReplyDeleteTime for a reality check. We have a problem that needs to be solved. No one is going to deport millions of undocumented residents and you should know that. Now let deal with reality and why the demonization of future citizens or at least the parents of future citizens and voters?
LPOV, for your biscuit and baby making workers sake I hope your wrong.
ReplyDeleteI demonize no one I just call a pot or kettle black when the need is there.
It is a fact you sneak in here your a criminal the same if you or were to sneak in to Mexico, who by the way has one of the militarized southern border of any country.
A simple fix if there can not be deportation again a point I disagree with on, is to make our southern border as secure as Mexico's then implement ID checks at any place that wires money out of the country.
Now it is hard for New criminals to come in and hard for present criminals to send their illegally earned untaxed money back out. Or better yet pass the fairest solution a flat consumption based tax on everyone.
I have no problem with Immigration I think it is a good thing to keep mixing the gene pool in the US. I want anyone from any country who comes here legally to have the same rights as you or I.
If criminals make anchor babies fine there is a giant waiting list here of people wanting to adopt. That again is a responsibility choice. If you sneak in as a criminal you should know your anchor baby will not be going back with you when your caught, but will be adopted to a legal resident of the US.
LPOV in the nature of trying to find common ground here is one for you. I was at Lowes this morning buying creamer. The woman in line in front of me appeared to be of Latino decent.
ReplyDeleteNo big deal she was on her cell phone speaking in Spanish again no big deal. She came up to pay, the cashier asked her cash or credit? She responded no habla english espenole?
Again no big deal maybe she is a tourist this is a tourist area.
Then she took out her card to pay. It was a food stamp card. Here is my problem, one she is in America and expected a cashier to speak Spanish, two she paid for that food on taxpayer money.Thus not a tourist but a person living in the USA.
Now if I moved to a Spanish speaking country I would expect to know or learn Spanish and not expect the country i moved to to speak my langue.
I would certainly not expect to have my food bought for me in the country I moved to if I could not speak the language of the country.
This hit a nerve I do not know if she was here legally or not, but I think i am not too far out of line to think that to have your food payed for by the taxpayers in the US you might want to learn the language of who is buying that milk and chicken for you. At least enough to speak to the cashier and not waive your card and say foodstamp.
Opoib
ReplyDeleteLots of thinks are being done wrong. I'm going to use the word ignorance not to demean or insult but the literal meaning of lack of knowledge is one of our major problems.
Fox and Limbaugh fuel such misinformation.
New immigrants do learn quick about the system here and sometimes how to exploit that system or at least use it. This is just another reason we need to have real immigration reform by not poisoning it with deportation nonsense or unnecessary rhetoric with racist overtone with terms like "Criminal Illegal Aliens" or taking revenge on children of the by preventing their education.
One of the things you're wrong about is Social Security and Medicare as well as Federal and state tax is withheld if the company they work for is not breaking the law. Don't confuse the Guess Worker program which this woman could be a part of with undocumented residents. Guess workers are the seasonal workers who have legal status, they also look like recent immigrants with limited English. These are the workers at Blowing Rock Country Club, and other resorts. They can stay here for 9 months but do return to their home country and they don't pay Social Security and Medicare or state or local tax but they are legal and loved by the Republican establishment.
My solution would be to raise the legal immigrants from nearby latin Countries and Canada to for more then the current 25,000 per year to perhaps 200,000 give a path to citizenship to those here for some period of time 3-5 years without serious crimes. New and existing immigrants would receive training on US residency, like being responsible, driving safely, drinking and driving laws, having insurance , a drivers license, Paying taxes, educating your children, banking, and paying bills on time all of which can be a problem in the current status quo.
LPOV. I stated a simple happening today and asked your opinion on that. You answered with a long list of talking point right off of msnbc.
ReplyDeleteI am not a full on righty or lefty. I am a libeertarion who is a moderate and looks at both sides, but always goes with what I feel is the proper solution fiscally.
To keep 11 to 14 million criminals here is something I can not support. Maybe we can agree that 11 to 14 million people that are here illegally are criminals not immigrants that would be a good start, immigrants do not sneak in durring the night across our borders.
It is too Damaging to out economy to support. I am still angry somebody was buying food this morning who could not speak a word of English expected a cashier to know Spanish for her and then paid with food stamps. If you can not see the wrong in that I do not know we will have any common ground to discuss things from.
You will not see me posting talking point from Fox or CNN or Rush or Comedy central . Well maybe if Colbert or Stewart is exceptionally funny that night .
My opinions are my own and discussed from that moderate viewpoint a financially fiscal one.
I was not aware I had sad anything from msnbc. I do like Rachael Meadows but don't watch her that often other that I seldom have MSNBC on.
ReplyDeleteI think you 're realistic enongh to realize there's NEVER going to be a deportation of families woven into the American fabric. Some of the undocumented have been here for forty years and have children and grandchildren who are Amerrican citizens.
The American public is not going to allow the forced deportation of children, or the parents, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, mothers, fathers grandfathers and grandmothers of American citizens. It ain't gonna happen!
Lets agree on that, then move on.
I agree we move on LPOV. I disagree that the American public would support deportation those who are citizens stay those who are illegaly should be made to leave.
ReplyDeleteOpoib
ReplyDeleteYou really think that will happen?
Do we have any common ground here?
Is the middle class growing?
Is there a disparity of income and wealth in America beyond people unwilling to work? The lady at Hardies and Thousands of Walmart empolyees get up early every morning why shouldn't the job be worth a wage people can survive on without public assistance? Why at least would people like Dan Soucek and the republicans cut funding for pre kindergarten designed to break the cycle of proverty by helping low income children?
Do the super Wealthy pay their fair share for the rewards they recieve from the American economic system?
Who needs more than $1,500,000 per year at very low taxes to a good job?
Do we need to tax the wealthy more?
Do you see nothing wrong with the economy justice in America?
Lpov, I ahave ot admit i am dissapointed by you. I hoped for a better more reasonable conversation with you here then we have had on other blogs. All i am getting fomr you is repitative posting of the same question. No discusttion no personal opions just the same question i can find on any left leaning site. I wrote to you form amoderat perspective neither right or left but my own. I was hoping for the same. I will answer a couple of yours and bow out .
ReplyDeleteYes I think the country if presented the facts and figures of supporting 11 to 14 million criminals, in a way that says these criminals cost you LPOV and every other taxpayer X # of dollars will want them deported.
We have no common ground on that or will have as I see them as criminals you see them as immigrant. That will not change. An immigrant to me came here legally with a green card or work permit or was sponsored and did not sneak in to the country in the middle of the night or in a coyotes van.
The Walmart and Hardees employees earn what their skills are worth those are entry level jobs. At no time in my life can I remember anyone thinking an entry level job should support middle class lifestyles. No one tells you you will get a three bedroom house 2.5 kids and two cars in the garage flipping burgers and that and Walmart and Hardees pay that min wage as that's what those positions earn. If you can not afford a lifestyle you want, it is up to you to get the skills or education or training to earn more not me to volunteer to subsidies your lack of skills or education or use of birth control.
This iI do not understand in the way you said it but I think I get the question "Who needs more than $1,500,000 per year at very low taxes to a good job?"
If I can earn more then 1.5 million and pay my taxes at the legally required rate then I say anyone who has the skills, knowledge or training to make more then 1.5 million is absolutely entitled to every cent they can make.
The wealthy make most of their money on capitol gains no labor. If you think the wealthy should pay a higher percentage tax capitol gains more but do not make it look like they are not paying as much as they legally have to . And as investors they also bear the risk of loosing their money faster if their investments fail then a payroll tax payer.
If you don't think Obama's tax lawyers are not working to make sure he does not have to pay one more cent in takes for the millions he made on his books I am afraid your very wrong.
I see a lot wrong in the economy like not having a flat consumption based tax system that is fair to all wealthy and poor alike. I see pacts for both sides of the fence influencing votes like the Koch's and the Soro's groups but repeating the same questions over and over does nothing.
Lets keep it factual. "At no time in my life can I remember anyone thinking an entry level job should support middle class lifestyles." No one is talking about a middle class lifestyle just enough for a very modest apartment in a safe area, transportation, healthy diet, modest reliable transportation, modest clothing, insurance for the car and health insurance money for the kids education. Starter income at a mega corporation like Walmart or Yum foods should be enough to meet basic needs. Especially when the owners and CEOs are millions in salaries. The six heirs of Walmart control more wealth than the bottom 40% of Americans.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you need to distort this to by moving a living wage to a middle class income?
No one has suggested what the very wealthy are doing is legally wrong just morally wrong and shows how the current political system is stacked against the working poor. The point here is we have a political system bought by the very wealthy at the expense of the working poor and the middle class. That job would have a higher market value if unions were allowed to level the playing field.
Lpov this is where you and I willhave to disagree I do not belive a min wage job entitles you to any of this. "No one is talking about a middle class lifestyle just enough for a very modest apartment in a safe area, transportation, healthy diet, modest reliable transportation, modest clothing, insurance for the car and health insurance money for the kids education"
ReplyDeleteIf you have no marketable skills beyond showing up and doing just what your told, such as flipping a burger mopping a floor making a biscuit then you will make min wages.
If you make minimum wage and do not better your self then you will have to live a minimum lifestyle. This includes not making kids you can not afford to take care of with out taxpayer assistance.
Just because you can breath and flip a burger does not entitle you to more the 7.25 an hour. If your not satisfied with that community college or vo-tech schools are free or extremely low cost.
"Especially when the owners and CEOs are millions in salaries." these people have extremely marketable and valuable skills if not they would not make those salaries and the owners have all the risk not the burger flippers at 7.25
If the heirs of the Walton family are too wealthy in your opinion what is the solution to remove that wealth from them? Not allow them to inherit it in the 1st place? Take it away by threat of imprisonment for just having rich parents ? That doesn't seem very fair. I received no inheritance from my welfare loving parent but if she left billions to me would you deny me the right to have it ?
I am disappointed in you I hoped in a new environment you would have more then just repetitive left leaning talking point questions. Maybe an opinion of your own not one made for you.
Morals are not and should never be legally regulated . The government has no business in my personal life, feeling, emotion,s or morals. If I want to be a tea totaling baptist or a skirt chasing womanizer drinking beer by the keg those are my moral choices. What does a left or right or moderate government have to do with them.
Opoib
ReplyDeleteIn some parts of the world the market price for a days work is a bowl or beans and rice.
Do you really want to live in a society of extreme poverty, crime, illiteracy, disease but a few extremely wealthy families or a highly educated, hard working, modivated society where nearly everyone pays taxes and is part of the solution?
We have models of both in the world today. Your political idealogy nor the Republican political idealogy is taking us in the direction of more citizens being part of the solution.
Opoib
ReplyDeleteI'm a very strong liberal that disappointed in the corporate owned press but I think I can backup most of my opinions with facts, math, science, reality, history and logic.
You made this comment. "Morals are not and should never be legally regulated " I'm confused here If you're talking about personal choices for living your life without doing harm to fellow human beings I'm onboard with you. If you're talking about making money with predatory capitalism, be it a physician writing addictive drug prescriptions, pay day loans, blocking workers from organizing effective unions or banking and wall street schemes of class warfare waged against the middle class it is the business of the government to see we have economic justice in America.
I guess we lost Nobody.
ReplyDeleteThe difference between Democrats and Republicans is Republicans cause poverty and the Democratic party's solutions to deal with the poverty are less than perfect allowing Republicans to return to power.
Lpov, I disagree with you 100% on this,
ReplyDelete" it is the business of the government to see we have economic justice in America" Please show me that in any legal document.
Lpov I disagree this time saying it is the "business of government" anything. The government is not a business that's the point. Business exists for one reason only profit.
ReplyDeleteIf a business decides to be charitable fine. If they do not fine by me. But to apply a moral standard to a business is not correct never has been never will be.
Morals apply to people not business's. I can choose to be a nice guy or jerk that's a mortal choice.
I run my business to make money not for any altruistic world view of do gooding.
Government should govern not be in the business of making money or telling others how to spend theirs. For your examples there are laws to protect people from those things laws and morals are two different things.
Opoib
ReplyDelete"Morals apply to people not business's." This is the very reason a business should NEVER be seen as a person with political rights.
The Government's Job or at least that of a good government is to see the citizens enjoy a justice, prosperous and enlightened society. Regulating business for fairness is part of that job. I do agree with your comment on the conservative blog.
I ask you again what kind of society do YOU want to live in? How good is your wealth if you fear being kidnaped or your business extorted?
Opoib
ReplyDelete"Morals apply to people not business's."
Chiquita Brands International funded death squads in Central America, That makes your point.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/chiquita-brands-accused-funding-death-squads-article-1.255970
Lpov, "How good is your wealth if you fear being kidnaped or your business extorted?" those are legal not moral matters government makes laws thats what is there for not to make a profit. Not to regulate morals upon business. And if my business is sucsessful I will hire my own security rather the rely on government security.
ReplyDeleteI do not think the well to do, do not have their own security or alarms installed they do not sit home with open doors think woe is me I hope the government protects me from kidnappping. Thats a matter of self reliance and responsibility.